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vivian

Version 6.0 of Joyfax Server has great functions--> cool fax editor

Sebastian

@MM:

nice graph you linked to, but there is more to the well-being at work than clocked hours.

You don't say. Workplace accidents would be another thing, wouldn't it? These have massively declined in Germany, from over 100 in 1960 to 26 in 2009 je 1000 Vollarbeiter (pre-1990 data for West Germany).

Look at an income graph for the same time span.

The subject matter was "well-being at work," not income, remember? In fact the whole starting-point for this discussion is the conflict between well-being and income.

MM

@sebastian

nice graph you linked to, but there is more to the well-being at work than clocked hours.
Look at an income graph for the same time span.

Sebastian

@MM:

"Cranky" europeans compare their present workplace experience with the environment 10 years ago. Even worse the compare it with that of their parents.

I doubt that. Maybe they get lost in nostalgia. If they did objectively compare modern workplace conditions to those of the post-war generation, they would again have to concede that they're pretty well off.

Judged by the past the present is an awful workplace.

What the hell?

MM

People don't and cannot compare US to europe.They just lack the experience. "Cranky" europeans compare their present workplace experience with the environment 10 years ago. Even worse the compare it with that of their parents.
Judged by the past the present is an awful workplace. Regulation's might be the same, but undermined by extensive use of loopholes, they have lost their regulating power.

Martin

@Christian: Yes, I wasn't talking about the article Andrew pointed us to. I was talikg about the things Andrew and others said.

And when I talk about burnt out people I talk about persons I know personally (friends and family) which where in psychiatric hospital for half a year, got almost divorced, or have other serious medical conditions as a side effects. Burt out is a really serious depression.

Martin

Sebastian

@Martin

Yes, you might(!) get a lighter work schedule. But you can also kiss your career good bye.

Uhhh, wasn't that exactly the point of this whole "medium chill" business? That your career will suffer, but that that's preferrable because your career will not make you happy anyway? I'm not saying that's actally true, but the discussion seems to be:

Person A: "You should ditch your career plans and take a lighter workload, and you will be happier in the end."

Person B: "Are you crazy man? If you take a lighter workload, your career is at stake!!"

I'd also like to say that there are lots of misconceptions about what burnout syndrome is and what causes it. Don't use it as a synonym for "overworked", people.

Martin

@Andrew: I agree, thats the point of the article you pointed us to and I was discussing something else: I will never agree to a system where it is either "have a career and live on the edge of burnout" or "have no career at all". There has to be a way to have career and life. And I don't know why I should stop fighting for this.

Can you give me one reason it has to be so?
At least one?

Our discrimination law could and should be enhanced. Agreed!

They should be comparing the amount of pressure they face to the amount of pressure the rest of the human race faces, including people doing similar work to theirs in the U.S.

This, they can not do. This would require them to experience it first hand in the U.S.

Their problem is that they're constantly comparing the amount of pressure they face to the amount of pressure they would face in a perfect universe.

Having much more personal experience with burnt out people than I would have preferred, I can tell you that this is a very, very high level and abstract way to put it. And I am not talking about all these whiners and bitchers you can find abundantly. I am talking about seriously depressed people.

My experience is more like that burnt out people can not live up to their own expectations because of a completely insane business environment they work in. They wouldn't mind a heavy workload at all if they have the feeling that it is getting results.

Martin

Andrew

@Martin: You're pointing out that there are trade-offs to these generous social benefits. Agreed! That's part of life. Perhaps you might 'kiss your career goodbye' if you ask for less work, but that's OK! The entire message of the blog post I linked to is that it's often the right thing to do to 'kiss your career goodbye.' You can either work as hard as you possibly can and advance rapidly in your career, or you can relax and accept that this will mean less career advancement, but more time with family. You can't expect both of these things to happen at the same time, because that would be a perfect world.

As for pregnancy discrimination, that's certainly a problem, but it's mainly down to Germany's toothless anti-discrimination laws. If employers had to carefully document their employment decisions, AND had to pay a fixed 10,000 euro penalty for proven pregnancy discrimination (in addition to any more specific damages) AND would have that fact publicized in all media, you'd see a lot less pregnancy discrimination.

@Curtis: I'm with Christian here. The fact that 1 person has to work extra because 20 others are enjoying a vacation sort of makes my point. And let me guarantee you that that one person who's working pretty hard now will get, and take, his mandated 6 weeks of vacation and holiday at some other time during the year. So he should remember that he's part of the 2% of the human race that has ever enjoyed such a privilege, and stop bitching.

And as Christian points out, burnout is a cultural phenomenon. Objectively, Germans and Austrians have less reason to be actually genuinely burned out than 99% of the human race. Their problem is that they're constantly comparing the amount of pressure they face to the amount of pressure they would face in a perfect universe. They should be comparing the amount of pressure they face to the amount of pressure the rest of the human race faces, including people doing similar work to theirs in the U.S.

Martin

Christian, yes I am from Germany. But I guess, that Curtis is from the US. This kind of argument (vacation as reason for burn out) is ridiculous.

Curtis blames the symptoms for the cause. The symptoms can be mitigated by a proper ressource planning, short time employment, etc.
The cause is the utter lack of competency in our management levels. Companies are led by managers that
- rely completely on numbers provided by their minions that isolate them against the real world,
- never had any kind of operative responsibility themselves
- shareholder value and short term profits is their only goal
- people (employees) are just ressources and not to be taken seriously or into account

And please: Nobody should take the comparatively low number of working hours a year in Germany as a whole as an indicator that everyone works that few hours.

Martin, working in an IT department led by a lawyer.

Christian

I'm not sure where the authors of the previous two comments are from, but my guess would be Germany (or at least Europe). From an American perspective, workers are not burnt out because everyone is taking vacations, thus causing unequal distributions of the workload at times. American workers are burnt out, because they are working at burn-out levels the entire year round, without the vacations. If you pile all those vacations together for the entire staff, you realize you could just fire an employee, pay the others a little bit more for their trouble, save some money at the corporate level, make the same profit, and have everyone work more! And when life is generally more expensive and time consuming, because America lacks features of basic social infrastructure (e.g., public transit) such that everyone is forced to fund and maintain their own personal substitutes for that which should be social, you have a system that burns up all this extra productivity just in its own maintenance, without yielding much reward in the happiness of those who live in it. A few people at the top then reap the rewards.

I think the real question is how to sell something as intangible as "happiness" on the level of social policy without being shouted out of the room by people screaming, "you lazy socialist."

Curtis

With all respect I think it's precisely these luxurious benefits that leads to burnout, at least from my humble observations. The trend to take so much time off means that the work has to be taken over by others in addition to their own workload. This, as I've seen in at least 6 cases, often leads to the ever increasing and popular "burnout syndrome".

Today I met a friend of mine that just came back from a 3 month voluntary leave at work. Why so much time off? She took time from work to spend with her 12 year old son after a recent divorce. I think that's great her company allowed her this time off but her work co-worker certainly was not as thrilled to have to do the work of two people for one salary for three months.

And as Martin pointed out, because of all these benefits, women are especially the targets of systematic discrimination.

I'm simply not convinced that having all this time off is such a great idea. How would I feel having to constantly do the work of a co-worker because of his/her penchant for time-off at work? I have another colleague who works as a lawyer for a large company where's he's currently being worked to a bloody stump because of the summer vacation madness. Everyone at his office is currently away for weeks at a time on summer holidays, which means he has to start work an hour earlier and doesn't get to leave until late at night. Despite all the extra time he has to be putting in to finish everyone else's work, the case files keep piling up on his desk.

I'm just awaiting the phone call, which should come any day now, saying he's hospitalized for burnout.

Martin

assuming you have a decent work record and a good reason to do so, if you visit with your boss and request a lighter work schedule, you're likely to get your wish.

Andrew, maybe you should come out of your academia world sometimes. Did you see the most current burn-out statistics?
Yes, you might(!) get a lighter work schedule. But you can also kiss your career good bye.

Both mothers and fathers of children are given an almost absurdly luxurious palette of options for adjusting their work schedules to care for young children.

Thats exactly why so many woman lose their job, their career and their chances of a good return to a decent position in the professional world after becoming mother. Because of your "luxurious palette". And that's why so many of them decide to not get kids at all.

I think in comparison you are not completely wrong. But heaven is somewhere else.

Martin

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