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J.S. Walker

Folks: Discipline and breeding are both implied; discipline of the kind that produces "breeding" in the sense of the pure cultivation of personally moral and socially virtuous qualities. (This has, in turn, something to do, as the Nazis understood it, with the outer form of "breeding" in which they were also interested.)

Sebastian Koppehel

@bosso:

"Zucht" does not mean "discipline"

Wrong.

"Zucht" clearly implicates the thought of "breeding" - here the arean "Herrenrasse".

It's true that "Zucht" also means breeding or rearing. Only that the title would then become "Joy, Breeding, Faith", and that wouldn't be a suitable motto for HJ camp life, but rather a What Doesn't Belong game. Joy, discipline, and faith are virtues. The HJ wanted to instill these virtues in German boys.

I take it you aren't a native German speaker. You may think that "Zucht" ­– in its breeding/rearing meaning – is synonymous to Erziehung, Aufziehen, Großziehen. Not so. It has strong sexual connotations: Selection of parents, covering (!), childbirth. It would be completely inappropriate to say something like: "Die Zucht meiner Kinder ist eine schwierige Aufgabe". A native speaker would not say that ever.

(To address a possible demur, it's right that the Nazis had biologistic pretensions, and there were plans to direct the genetic enhancement of the German people by encouraging desirable people to have children in a manner somewhat similar to animal breeding – to say nothing of the much more pronounced, widespread destruction of undesirable people. But neither of these would obviously have happened at HJ camps!)

Johannes

The association with breeding is plausible, but in this case misleading. Kluge's etymological dictionary says that it derives from "ziehen" (pull) and that there was an early meaning change connecting it with "erziehen" (raise, educate).
Andrew's translation of the title seems fine to me.

The breeding in "Lebensborn" or elsewhere was supposed to begin a few years after the camping holidays :D

Alex

Anyhow, all Anglo-Americans seems to be fascinated from the fascist era. ;-)

The discussion about Zucht is quite interesting.
No, here is no direct link to breeding.

It is meant as (self)diszipline, in the direction of chastly manners.

You may look as well to the meaning of the relative words "züchtig", "Unzucht"(contrary) and "züchtigen" (the penalty, if people did abide "Zucht") to get the clue.

josh

"Zucht und Ordnung" does not always come as pair. Stuff like "die rechte Zucht aufrecht erhalten" can be found very often in the 19th and early 20th century literature about education.

josh

"Zucht" also implies "discipline". "Zucht und Ordnung" does not mean "Breeding".

ian in hamburg

The five definitions on Leo are:

breed
breeding
chastity
rearing and...

cell culture!

cohu

I'd love to read the German original/long version for your "poets in cities are permitted to slouch". I think that's my new motto (and I'm not even a poet).

I think "Zucht" has connotations of both "breeding" and "discipline". It's a repulsive word, like a brutal teutonian version of "cultivation".

bosso

By the way: If you're starting to translate political "works" from the NS-era you might be interested in peeking into "LTI" (lingua tertii imperi), http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTI_%E2%80%93_Notizbuch_eines_Philologen

This is a really enlightning discussion on how the nazis recoined countless German words, inseminated them with new meanings, sometimes doing so in a rather subtle way.

bosso

Andrew, you're right. In other circumstances I would go along.

But here it's a title of a book that explains how the Nationalsozialisten wanted to *breed* the coming generation.

And it is meant that way, "Von der Aufzucht des Kindes". While you can accomplish discipline with strong will, a (e.g.) jew may never be forced to meet the higher breed!

"Zucht" is one of the core beliefs of the Nazis, and - trust me - "discipline" is merely displaced here.

Andrew

I disagree, Bosso, and so does Duden. True, the first three definitions of Zucht in Duden relate to animal breeding, but that's just the thing: they're used for animals. The fourth definition is: (geh.: Disziplin) Discipline; fuer Zucht und Ordnung sorgen -- keep order.

bosso

Just a thought:

"Zucht" does not mean "discipline", as one would think by reading your translation.

"Zucht" clearly implicates the thought of "breeding" - here the arean "Herrenrasse". "Zucht und Ordnung" comes as a pair, in which "Zucht" points to the homogenous type, and "Ordnung" to the individual discipline.

Since I don't speak English, I cant offer a better translation. But "discipline": It's not! 8-)

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