How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sie and Du

Silent Eloquence has an amusing post on the distinction between the formal "Sie" and the informal "du" mode of address in German:

I am convinced the only reason it exists is to confuse the hell out of non-Germans.

I didn’t realise what a pain it is, till now - I have finally reached a stage where I feel confident to try out meaningful conversations (beyond how are you and whats your name and have a good weekend) in German - and all of a sudden the Sie - Du conundrum looms large in the horizon. Its grammatically simple, really - it affects the verb declination a little bit,thats all. But the big question is - who do you use Du with and who do you use Sie with?

Ahh, the perennial question for learners of German as a foreign language.  She wraps up the post with a fervent wish: "I wish Deutsch evolves too, like English, to have only one form of You.  And that the evolution happens within the next couple of months!"

I remember also breaking my mind on Sie/du when I was learning German.  At this stage, it looks just like an unnecessary annoyance.  But in the course of time, I've learned to modify my views a bit.  So here are a few observations:

1.  Germans themselves have problems with whether to address people formally or informally.   This often happens at professional conferences, where people mix with one another without previous knowledge of their position.  You might start out talking to someone who also works in IT, or the legal department, at some other company.  Because you're about the same age, and have similar backgrounds, you might start to "duzen."  Then, in the course of the conversation, it turns out that you are just an ordinary grunt, but the person you're speaking to actually runs a department of 100 people, and might even be in a position to give you a job one day.  Do you switch to "Sie"?  I've heard lots of howlingly funny stories about such situations.  Or when a very old professor begins calling you "du," but seems to be addressing someone else in one of his fits of absent-mindedness.  Do you continue with "du?"  Was his "offering you the 'du'", as the Germans say, intentional? 

When you see Germans twisting themselves into knots over this question, it becomes easier to deal with the problems yourself.

2. The existence of Sie and du gives you, the foreigner, a chance to "declare yourself exempt" from some of the seemingly unnecessary stiffness and formality of German social interactions.  Whenever I'm in doubt about whether to siezen or duzen somebody, I just say "Listen, I come from the U.S., and am not very familiar with the Sie/du thing.  Should I be using Sie or du with you?"  This question has usually never been posed to them before, and often renders them literally speechless for 10-15 seconds.  But they usually recognize that it's a legitimate question: it shows (1) you're speaking their language; and (2) you respect their social customs and are anxious not to offend.  But, at the same time, the question says "Shit, you can't expect me to read your mind or magically guess what's appropriate in all situations.  I'm not from here.  Let's just resolve the issue at the outset, and then move on."  This gives you a little bit of cultural space for you to move around in.  Plus, the rare person who's offended by the question brands himself an asshole who can be safely avoided.

3.  Although some Europeans might like a less formal mode of interaction, it's important to realize that many of them feel the distinction still serves a valid purpose, and don't want to see it eliminated.  As Roland Barthes once rhetorically asked: "Why is an 'informal' relation (as we greedily say) more desirable than a coded one?"

a.  First, having Sie and du establishes that "du" really means something.  You don't just casually offer the 'du' to people, it signifies a real bond.  The comparison is often drawn to the U.S., where everybody uses first names to each other and engages in a lot of superficial heartiness.  But does calling someone "Bob" instead of "Mr. Jackson" really mean anything?  Vide the sentence "Bob, I'm sorry, you're not working out for us.  You get 2 weeks' severance pay, if you want any more you'll have to sue.  It's been a pleasure working with you, Bob, but you need to leave your office in 2 hours today or we will consider you a trespasser.  This gentleman from security will escort you, Bob, to make sure everything goes smoothly."

Another example: when you shop in Germany, the staff and cashiers are identified by badges that say "Frau Kohoutek" or "Herr Richter."  It's a subtle way of recognizing that the work they do has dignity and is necessary.  Whenever I go back to the U.S., I always ask the cashiers whether they really want to wear a name badge that says "Hi!  I'm Cindy!"  A lot of them don't.  And they also don't want to be forced to stand up all day behind the cashiers' counter, but they are.  [I then try to convince them to join a union]   

b.  Complexity can be interesting.  A friend of mine, a French professor name Mikhail, once responded to my complaint by pointing out that he still referred to a very long-term colleague, with whom he'd gone on several trips, by the formal address.  It wasn't a sign of remoteness or hostility, just a quiet, dignified recognition of the difference in position between them, and the origin of their association.  Of course, having different modes of formality adds complexity (Japanese, I'm told has 5).  But then, cooking an elaborate 4-course meal is surely more complex than stuffing yourself with fast food from a paper bag while speeding along the freeway to your next appointment.

That is how I've come to view the issue.  But of course, that's no help to people learning German, who are horrified to find that they have to master several entirely separate ways of conjugating verbs, and make a split-second choice -- as they speak -- between them.  All I can say is: get a good language teacher.

Comments

[Ligia]

Bastian Sick writes an interesting text about it again:

http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/zwiebelfisch/0,1518,455733,00.html

[NoName]

From my point, the very best answer was already given: Just tell you're foreigner and you don't know which one to use: the sie or du. Grant your opponent the seconds to rethink the situation. She or he is switching between those two variants all day long without thinking about it. In the end, he or she might need the time... ;-)

I think the germans you are talking to usually will offer you the 'du' (it will depend on who you are, where you are, how old you are, etc...). However, a 'sie' does not necessarily mean your dialog partner is an a s s h o l e . In companies (or other places with strict hierarchical order) the 'sie' is used. To both: Superiors and between colleagues. Especially in conservative surroundings or where you want to express some respect or distance (e.g. very good Hotels / Restaurants , Banks, ...).

Using 'sie' and the first name or just first name or 'du' was introduced in anglo-saxon companies (in germany) first - I think. It has been adopted by some other companies since then.

If you, as a foreigner, mix up sie and du, it is not a big deal. So you shouldn't bother too much about this little detail of the language! Some corners of this topic really are subtle. For example, if a german uses the 'du' in a talk with a police officer, this could be understood as offensive. Using the 'sie' with a child would lead to the impression you're talking to a little 'prince'... since this over expressed respect looks somewhat inappropriate.

In the end, I must admit, that I like this level of indirection. Its not only a burden, but also a degree of freedom. Even it its not always easy to handle.

[Ligia]

Using languages like, Spanish, Italian and French to explain it´s really useful on the begining. But I was wondering if the french, ofr example, switch tous/vous as the germans switch du/Sie.

Anyway, thanks for the "tipps". I think they are useful and alwyas helped me when I´ve found myself in a du/Sie Situation. I´ve realised that "Sie" is the pattern for work colleagues in germany. Much different from what I use in Brazil. I´ve had some german bosses and they´ve always " duzed" me and other co-workers. At least among teachers we say "du" all the time, in the school, in the Seminars, Workshops, even the "wildfremde Kollegen".

[Martin]

From my point of view the basic rule should be that everyone is "Sie", unless they either offered you the "Du" or you meet on some kind of friendship base (like an old friend from kindergarden introducing you to his new girlfriend, or meeting your brothers army pals at his birthday party).
"Duzen" is really only for friends, i wouldnt even say "Du" to a co-worker unless he offered it to me.

[Schorsch]

Yes, Kaltmamsell: a pretty garden fence ...

[kaltmamsell]

I am very glad to have this distinction - sometimes I even feel that I can be more open in a "Sie"-relationship, especially in business situations. Example: "The tie you're wearing today is really becoming" is something I can say to my boss completely unflirting with "Sie" ("Diese Krawatte steht Ihnen ganz besonders gut"), as the formal address keeps a save distance. Would I be "duzen" my boss the remark might come across as too flirting.
The "Sie" is a like a pretty garden fence that enables me to feel save and relaxed.

[ak]

An alternative way of explaining the difference is by showing similar constructions in other languages. Pretty good example: "tú"/"vosotros" (informal) and "usted"/"ustedes" (formal) in Spanish. This, of course, requires at least basic understanding of Spanish (or some other language with the same or similar differentiations).

Actually, the root problem is that English language is way too simple to form a good base of understanding on the principles of languages, which then makes it harder to understand more complicated grammar constructs. ;-) On the other side, German is a PITA in many ways, with lots and lots of pitfalls (and I say that as a native German speaker).

[Cheers]

The everyday rule is much simplier: Either you generally use "Sie" at first and while having the conversation find an aggreement to switch to "Du".
Or you just hesitate to use it as long as it's possible (by e.g. not saying "Bitte schicken Sie mir die Unterlagen..." but "Ich brauche noch die Unterlagen...") to see what the other guy will do. :-)
Although sometimes it's a real pain, the Sie/Du difference gives you the ability to keep distance between you and people you don't like but you have to deal with.

[Ligia]

The teacher´s theirselves try to explain but they do not understand it 100%. I´ve always thought that I couldn´t handle correctly with " duzen" and " Siezen" because I am a foreigner that spent too little time with the "german society" in its different levels.

Surprising was, that in a meeting of german teachers in a language school I work for, The " du" and" Sie" question came up, as part of our " Landeskunde training": most of the colleagues were german native speakers and some brazilians that had more or lees contact with Germany (one of then was a brazilian married to a german and with many degrees and experiences from Goethe Institut, the " model" on German as Foreign Language issues)

We went through a long list of" Du/Sie" situations and just gave up when we realized that it was just wasted time! We would explain to students that "du" and " Sie" are "formel" und "informel" and make them pay attention to which of the forms where used on Coursebooks, Newspapers, viedes and in their working place (most of the students works for german companies)and that´s it!

So we, non native-speakers were kind of frustrated, when we realised that our Muttersprachler Colleagues could disagree a lot on "Du" and " Sie" issues, mainly because they were germans from different regions, backgrounds an some were living since a long time in Brazil, long enough to change their minds about this annoying Question: I rarely ever heard a " Sie" from a german in Brazil... and that can be a rule ;-)

[Stephan]

@4.a: But what happens when "Frau Kohoutek" and "Herr Richter" know each other quite well and must talk to each other in front of a customer? They use the formal "Frau"/"Herr" together with "Du" - as in "Du, Herr Richter, ich geh' mal auf die siebzehn." BTW: Can you guess which location this shop-talk code number stands for?